Author Topic: Registration layers  (Read 21780 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Rod

Registration layers
« on: March 21, 2015, 02:25:31 AM »
Hello. I use registrations a lot for layered sounds for particular projects. Right now I'm looking at the Karelia Suite, and want two French horns, one a third down from the other. So a new Registration Bank, normal French Horn Right 1 - memory - button 1. OK. Move to Right 2, transpose the French Horn a third down - memory - button 1 again. Doesn't work - both voices at normal. Works fine with a different voice. So is it not possible to layer the same voice if one is transposed? Can't see why not, and nothing in The Book (nothing new there then!). Or am I missing something?

Hoping to be enlightened ... stay well ...

Rod
 

Offline murrayb

Re: Registration layers
« Reply #1 on: March 21, 2015, 10:22:34 AM »
Rod:

I tried this on my T4 and it worked fine.  Send me your registration file, and I'll see what happened inside it.

Cheers,

Murray
One can do without most things, but not without the pleasure of music.

Check out my Registration Manager at:  http://psrtutorial.com/util/best.html
 

Offline tyrosaurus

Re: Registration layers
« Reply #2 on: March 22, 2015, 09:06:10 AM »
Hi Rod,

Registrations aside,  I am surprised that you say you can transpose a voice in R1 by a different amount to R2 (other than by whole octave differences) and play them both at the same time!

Please explain how you are doing this because I can't find a simple way of doing this on my T4.

The only pitch changing functions that I am aware of are the obvious 'Transpose' (either using the buttons or the Mixing Console TUNING page) which can be adjusted up or down by 12 semitones,  but when used for the keyboard parts, affects every part by the same amount at any one time.  Also on the TUNING page are two settings which can be adjusted separately for each main voice part, the OCTAVE function, but you can't adjust this to give a 'third' difference, and the TUNING function but this only adjusts up or down by one semitone.

There is a PitchChange DSP which you can edit and save as a USER DSP and then use with the voice but the results are not brilliant.

The best way that I have found is to use the PC Voice Editor to make a custom version of the French Horn voice with each element adjusted to play four semitones lower using the 'Note Shift' setting on the Element Detail page.  This gives a nice clean sound just like the original voice apart from the change in pitch. This voice can then be used in R2 with the original version in R1, and will give the effect that I think you are trying to achieve.  Obviously once you have made the voice there is no problem including it in a registration.

Regards

Ian
 

Offline Rod

Re: Registration layers
« Reply #3 on: March 23, 2015, 03:13:11 AM »
Hello Murray and Ian - bit grey and damp here, disappointingly! Oh well ... Murray, not sure how to do as you ask, my computer skills haven't got past the point and grunt stage. So far as I can tell, I get two originally pitched voices on R1 and R2, no matter how vicious I am with the 'Transpose' button, so I guess nothing is going on!

Ian, I think I managed to mislead myself by changing voices - it seems that both voices play at their original pitches. Wishful thinking may have played a part in this! I see I've posted this same problem before, but thought I'd solved it with the 'Tuning' function. I hadn't, and in the fullness of time I've got back to the same problem on the same piece.

It seems to me to be a very simple thing, and I cannot see why it isn't possible! The Registration is advertised as storing all the settings - but it doesn't! It ignores the transposition, which is a pretty major setting, I'd have thought? So you're confirming this glaring omission exists. Pity! However, you being you, your suggestion of creating a new voice via the PC Editor is a good one - I imagine it then becomes a 'User' voice when loaded back into the T3, and is available as such as is. I still have the problem (another Yamaha omission!) of being unable to expand the Editor to full screen, which with the state my eyes are in, makes things difficult! Should it not be possible by transposing the French Horn, then copying and pasting the result, and being able to use it without the PC Editor? Sorry, thinking on the fly and the T3 is currently out of service ...

Stay well, one and all ... being a grey day, might get something done on the T3 later today ... by the way, I had to postpone changing to the T5 as we managed to smash our Renault up. Insurance would have written it off (being 13 years old) so we had to dig deep to get it fixed ourselves. Sometimes I wonder why we bother with anything but 3rd Party ...

Rod
 

Offline Rod

Re: Registration layers
« Reply #4 on: March 23, 2015, 06:58:06 AM »
Hello Ian (et al) - OK, got the T3 going again, so tried my idea of transposing the French Horn down a third, then 'Copy', tab to 'User', and 'Paste'. No joy, the copy ignores the transposition. Bit stumped as to why that is? Surely it should copy the voice together with all its settings? It copies Reverb, for example, so why not transposition? Muttermutter ...

Rod
 

Offline jwyvern

Re: Registration layers
« Reply #5 on: March 23, 2015, 11:16:41 AM »
Rod, if you are using the panel transpose buttons they are often by default set to work on the Song, which means you won't hear any transpose when playing the keyboard, let alone being able to save it in a registration. To get the buttons to work with the keyboard voices, go to Function/Controller/Keyboard tab and set Transpose assign to Keyboard. Now when saving registrations (making sure Transpose is ticked after pushing the memorise button) you should be able to get the transpose saved.
But going back to your original post you still won't be able to achieve a different TP value in R1 versus R2.
The quickest way surely is to put the French Horn into R1 and play 2 finger third chords to sound the notes you require?
Even if you are successful in "fixing" a transpose down by a third (eg. by creating a custom voice using the PC Editor) won't this sometimes clash with the requirements of the music, which may sometimes require major thirds, and at others require a minor third depending on the how the melody moves within the scale?  
John
« Last Edit: March 23, 2015, 11:41:28 AM by jwyvern »
 

Online keyplayer

Re: Registration layers
« Reply #6 on: March 23, 2015, 11:27:15 AM »
Hi Rod,

How are you doing the transposition on the keyboard? I have a T3 and I can't see any way on board of transposing an individual voice, only to transpose the whole keyboard or a midi song. You can 'detune' a voice using the mixing console and save that in a registration but that only moves by small degrees up or down a semitone.

Do you select the French Horn and press 'transpose' down 4 times? If so, when you look in the screen the top left hand corner of the display will tell you the keyboard is now
transpose: -4, not just the French Horn.

 

Offline Joe H

Re: Registration layers
« Reply #7 on: March 23, 2015, 11:50:46 AM »
Rod,

As noted above... In the Mixing Console PANEL PART you can transpose R1 and R2 up or down by Octaves only.  You can also fine Tune.  Both these setting will save in a registration if you have the boxes checked.  You might take a look at the Harmony Presets to see if any of those will work for you.  These can also be saved in a registration (if the box is checked.)

Joe H
Music is the Universal Language!

My Article: Using Multi Pads for EDM. Download Regs, Styles & MPs:  http://psrtutorial.com/music/articles/dancemusic.html
 

Offline Rod

Re: Registration layers
« Reply #8 on: March 23, 2015, 01:38:06 PM »
Hello John, and thank you. The transpose assign is set to 'Master' which seems to work OK in that I get the transposition sounding OK, but as has been advised it affects the whole keyboard, not just the particular voice, so everything is down by a third on all 3 parts. I'm sure there are good musical reasons for this, it just seems to me Yamaha should have provided the option. Anyway, they haven't, so I guess that's the end of it. You're right of course, the obvious way is to simply play thirds - again as you say, the third isn't always right ... I was attempting to simplify the right hand to give my left hand a better chance! I'm no player, you see, so any way of keeping it simple is useful. One finger is simple ...

Yes keyplayer, I was indeed transposing by using the 'Transpose' buttons (to no avail) but I might have a go at 'separating' the horns by detuning just to add a bit of depth. If you don't try, you don't find out! Thanks for the idea!

Hi Joe, the snag with 'Harmony' is that you have to have an accompaniment running - although I could turn it down in the mixing console - I'll give that a try as well. All this should keep me at it for a while ... thanks everyone  ... keep well ...

Rod
 

Offline Joe H

Re: Registration layers
« Reply #9 on: March 23, 2015, 06:17:43 PM »
Rod,

You don't have to have the accompaniment actually running, but you do have to play a chord with the left hand for the Harmony to play. And you will have to turn the style volume down if you don't want to hear the Pad and Bass.  This can be saved in a registration too.

Just throwing out some ideas.    ;D

Joe H
Music is the Universal Language!

My Article: Using Multi Pads for EDM. Download Regs, Styles & MPs:  http://psrtutorial.com/music/articles/dancemusic.html
 

Offline jwyvern

Re: Registration layers
« Reply #10 on: March 24, 2015, 03:09:10 AM »
As Joe says you can experiment with the auto harmony. There isn't one that gives a true third, the closest is a fifth, but nevertheless most of them give professional sounding alternatives using one RH finger, especially with Horns if appropriate chords are held in the left hand. The fifth gives a good fanfare reminiscent of those old jousting films, Ivanhoe, Henry Vth .......... :)
John  
« Last Edit: March 24, 2015, 03:42:01 AM by jwyvern »
 

Offline Rod

Re: Registration layers
« Reply #11 on: March 26, 2015, 01:56:29 PM »
Hello Joe and John, and yes, I've been playing with auto-harmony (muted) and registrations, together with the mixing console (mainly volume and effects), and can achieve some very pleasing results using just 2 voices (French Horns and Symphony Brass). Still juggling - the particular 'liquid' quality I seek is elusive! But thank you for the pointers and corrections!

Stay well ...

Rod

 

Offline jwyvern

Re: Registration layers
« Reply #12 on: March 27, 2015, 01:50:45 AM »
Still juggling - the particular 'liquid' quality I seek is elusive! But thank you for the pointers and corrections!

Stay well ...

Rod




Hi Rod, the harmony can get into the habit of missing on occasional notes depending on your timing and playing of the LH chords so you get RH harmony inter-mixed with single notes instead of consistency. Is that what is spoiling the "liquid" quality?
I find that to get a good consistent harmony, it often sounds much better and is less critical to play the LH chords with the style running rather than stopped (with style volume down in your case so it is not heard).  
A particularly good harmony with horns is the 4Way Open played 1 finger in the keyboard range roughly C4 or higher to avoid muddiness, (with octave settings and transpose at default  and taking middle C as C3). In the Harmony settings you can set harmony to apply to R1,2 or 3 or you can choose Multi to get a more comprehensive effect if more than 1 voice is on.
It pays to change the LH chords fairly frequently as then the RH voices will walk around as the changing harmony dictates as well as reacting to any changes to melody, giving a more realistic feel.
John
« Last Edit: March 27, 2015, 02:47:35 AM by jwyvern »