Author Topic: Chord fingering mode: chord inversions and Voicing.  (Read 9279 times)

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pinetree

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Chord fingering mode: chord inversions and Voicing.
« on: June 14, 2014, 11:16:35 PM »
Hi :)

I would like to hear opinions about this issue.

I'm talking about the Tyros, but I believe the issue is common to all Yamaha keyboards and maybe to all keyboards in general.

One of the most important critics I have with the Tyros is what seems to be the total lack of taking chord voicing/inversions into account when using styles.
The Tyros completely ignores chord inversions and even if a chord is played in first inversion, the Tyros will treat it as a chord in root position. This means that chord voicing is not possible.

One of the most important and interesting aspect of the Tyros is playing with styles.
The most important thing required for the styles to work correctly is to allow the Tyros to recognize the chord you wish to play.
Without chords, styles are nearly useless.

Let's look at it in details:

To allow the Tyros to recognize what chord you wish to play, the Tyros allows various options:

Chord fingering mode:
menu:Function - Chord Fingering - Chord fingering type.

The available finger types are:
1. Single finger: Beginners can play major, minor, 7th and minor 7th with simple shortcut 1, two or three fingers.
2. Multifinger: Allows beginners to use one finger simplified method plus play full chords when they wish.
3- Fingered: The full chord needs to be played for the Tyros to recognize it.
4. Fingered on Bass: like "fingered" but the Tyros will play the left most note as the bass note.
5. Full Keyboard
6. AI Fingered
7. AI Full keyboard

What is Chord voicing:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voicing_(music)
"Voicing is "the manner in which one distributes, or spaces, notes and chords among the various instruments"

Chord voicing is very important to create a smooth sound in chord progressions avoiding sound jumps and unpleasant sound combinations and most of all playing as far as possible with the same voicing feel as the original.

Example:
A triad chord like C major chord can be played in various ways:

C E G  (called C major in root position)
E G C  (called C major first inversion)
G C E  (called C major second inversion)

Each of the three are C major chords but on a piano or without using styles, they sound different especially if played in a chord progression (a sequence of chords).
And the voicing and chord inversion chosen in many songs gives it that unique recognizable sound.

The only Chord fingering type I'm able to use is the "Fingered", which I believe nearly everyone uses, the others are used on rare occasions.

I hope in the future Tyros introduces a new finger type "Fingered with chord inversions", and the styles need to consider the bass and the accompaniment to follow correctly.

To understand the importance of Voicing and chord inversions, you may find may videos on Youtube.

Pino :)
 

Offline jwyvern

Re: Chord fingering mode: chord inversions and Voicing.
« Reply #1 on: June 15, 2014, 07:10:48 AM »

hi Pino,
Welcome to the Forum!
It's arguable in my opinion whether the styles should have to concern themselves with the subtler changing of voicings when their main duty is to attempt to interpret the "right" chords almost regardless of the quality of voicings presented to them by players (helped by the choices of Fingering modes available for differing situations).
The fact that LH inversions/ voicings are not properly heard IMO is that most of the time on a KB the left voice is either off, or if on is set by default at very low level, so the player is choosing (consciously or not) to avoid sounding directly what the LH is playing- whether it's good or bad, voicing-wise.
Where a player needs to add to the fullness or mood of a performance, through creative use of left hand voicings he or she can use a suitable /audible LH voice. Inversions used for short counter melodies and 1 or 2 finger embellishments would of course still need to be within the limitations of needing to define the correct chording for the style :), but creative use of a LH voice can have a significant impact on songs.
John   
 

pinetree

  • Guest
Re: Chord fingering mode: chord inversions and Voicing.
« Reply #2 on: June 15, 2014, 09:53:49 AM »
Thanks John.

I'm not much interested in the LEFT part voice but the Style playing.

I think chord inversion are normally chosen for one of two reasons:

1. to avoid distant finger movements, which could be the cause of hitting the wrong buttons and there is no problem with the Tyros, the chords are correctly recognized.
2. to create a smooth sound between chords avoiding sound jumps, ie: Chord voicing, this aspect is important in some songs and I find no solution to the problem other than switching off the rhythm part of the style and playing the rhythm myself using the LEFT hand voice.

For instance people normally move from Am to C in second inversion, rather than playing C major on the root notes, for both of the reasons I mentioned before.
Another example are the three chords C, F and G, the C major is quite a sound jump from the F and G major, and first or second inversion would be preferred in many songs.
For many songs, it's not a big issue, but on some songs the sound jump stands out too much.

Unfortunately the tyros completely ignores inversions and plays all chord inversions as if it was played in it's root position.
It's not a problem for the chord recognition, I suppose the tough job would be to decide how each style should react in the different situations:
When a style is strumming the chords, it's an easy job to let them play correctly the played inversion notes rather than play the root chord notes.
When the style is playing arpeggios or other more complex sound combinations, it might be a more complicated job to consider different chord inversions, but I'm sure the Yamaha engineers know better.
Things get complicated when there are various parts that take the chord into account, from bass, chord 1 and 2 and rhythm1 and 2.
Switching all these off to play the rhythm myself would not produce the same quality rich quality sound.

Obviously chord inversion could only work with a new chord fingering mode "Fingered with inversions", because it would be impossible with the one finger mode to recognize and inversion.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2014, 10:22:33 AM by pinetree »
 

Offline English

Re: Chord fingering mode: chord inversions and Voicing.
« Reply #3 on: June 15, 2014, 11:27:37 AM »
Even though I now use Korg as my arranger keyboard, I think that Yamaha does the best job of them all when it comes to chord recognition.

It's a tough nut to crack, but I feel that Yamaha does surprisingly well. Being a jazzer at heart, I'm often trying to squeeze extended dominants out of the keyboard. Things such as thirteen chords, augmented elevenths, etc... I'm often surprised that the keyboard can generate these chords - even if it does require hitting six notes at a time in the left hand.

Now, the thing about nicer sounding chords - particularly in the jazz genre - is that they are very often vague. On a piano, I will often play "fourthy" voicings. There is a song called "Little Linda" by Spyro Gyra  which starts with the first two chords being G and C. On the piano (when working with a bass player), I will play the notes E-A-D for the first chord (G6/9), and the notes E-A-D for the second chord (C6/9).Yes, it's exactly the same voicing for both chords. It's only the bass note which is determining which chord it is.

For further examples, if I play the notes: A-C-Eb-G, am I playing F9, Am7b5 or Cm6? It's impossible to tell without the bass note being identified.
When playing an arranger keyboard, I don't so much consider that I am playing the left hand, as instructing the keyboard which chord to play.
I'm operating more than playing. Further, I play - and was told to play when beginning - all voicings in the range F to F as much as possible. This avoids too much lateral movement in the left hand. This, of course requires lots of different inversions of the chords.

Personally, I feel that trying to coax particular inversions of a simple chord out of an arranger keyboard would be extremely onerous. The keyboard is working hard behind the scenes to make sure the chords it plays don't wander into the muddy or tinny range. It is already calculating the optimum inversion to play.

In my opinion, to ask the keyboard to play the particular inversion you want would be too much to ask, and make it extremely awkward to play.

I remember the original keyboards by makers such as Yamaha. Their chord recognition was very, very basic.  I think they have come a very long way and, as I say, personally I think that Yamaha does the best job of the arrangers I have played. I don't really know how they could improve it without placing a lot more work into the players' hands.
Alan.
AlanDavisJr.com
Korg PA3x, Yamaha Tyros 4, Yamaha CP4 Stage Piano, Yamaha PSR3000, Roland F-100 Electric Piano, Roland PK-5 Bass Pedals, various harmonicas, penny whistle and a bass triangle (needs tuning)
 

pinetree

  • Guest
Re: Chord fingering mode: chord inversions and Voicing.
« Reply #4 on: June 15, 2014, 02:07:41 PM »
Hi Alan, thanks for your answer.

.....
if I play the notes: A-C-Eb-G, am I playing F9, Am7b5 or Cm6? It's impossible to tell without the bass note being identified.
The Tyros makes it's own choice.

Quote
The keyboard is working hard behind the scenes to make sure the chords it plays don't wander into the muddy or tinny range. It is already calculating the optimum inversion to play.
The Tyros does no optimum inversion calculation, all chords played in any inversion on the keyboard will always be played as a root chord by the Tyros.

Quote
In my opinion, to ask the keyboard to play the particular inversion you want would be too much to ask, and make it extremely awkward to play.

For some songs, it could be quite useful, I suggest the player should choose, that's why I propose the "Finger with inversion" chord detection mode.

Pino.
 

Offline English

Re: Chord fingering mode: chord inversions and Voicing.
« Reply #5 on: June 15, 2014, 02:23:58 PM »
he Tyros makes it's own choice.
Well, obviously, yes. The point I was trying to make is that on a theoretical level, without the bass note, we have no way of knowing what that chord is meant to me. With arranger keyboards in regular chord recognition mode, we have no way of telling the keyboard what the bass note should be.
It was meant to express the difficulty a dumb computer (a keyboard) will have with selecting the correct chord from the pattern in the left hand that you are playing because many/most voicings in the left hand have multiple potential chords. There are some "intelligent" methods built in, but it won't be able to do as good a job as a human inferring it from context/key, etc...

The Tyros does no optimum inversion calculation, all chords played in any inversion on the keyboard will always be played as a root chord by the Tyros.

It does, but I probably need to expand on this.
Find a style that has, say, a guitar part. Play a basic chord in root position. Mute everything but the guitar. Now start playing the chord, successively descending in semi-tones. You will find at one point that the inversion of the chord being played by the guitar will change. It does this to avoid the part becoming too muddy, or too high.

I know that with the Korg, you can even set the parameters (in the style editor) to tell it when to invert the chord for a particular part so that it always stays within a certain pitch range. I can't remember whether the Tyros has this setting, but I believe it does. All parts will do this - even the bass. If it always played in the root inversion, it would sound pretty bad.

Alan.
AlanDavisJr.com
Korg PA3x, Yamaha Tyros 4, Yamaha CP4 Stage Piano, Yamaha PSR3000, Roland F-100 Electric Piano, Roland PK-5 Bass Pedals, various harmonicas, penny whistle and a bass triangle (needs tuning)
 

pinetree

  • Guest
Re: Chord fingering mode: chord inversions and Voicing.
« Reply #6 on: June 15, 2014, 02:55:02 PM »
.....
 If it always played in the root inversion, it would sound pretty bad.
Alan.

Unfortunately I've tried everything possible, I find no settings to resolve this issue.

At first the "Fingered on bass" seemed like the right setting, unfortunately it's simply sounds a mess on most styles: it does play the inversion chord, but destroys the style, the arpeggios or other styles sound wrong, the bass part gets deleted and plays on the one note, this maybe works in an acceptable way only on some simple styles, I haven't discovered which yet.

By the way, I've been listening to your "Compilation of Songs from a Live Performance" video, you're an excellent player and singer, on another planet, I'm a door bell player compared to you :P

Pino
 

Offline English

Re: Chord fingering mode: chord inversions and Voicing.
« Reply #7 on: June 15, 2014, 03:01:47 PM »
Thanks, Pino. I think I understand what you are looking for. Unfortunately, I don't have a Tyros any more, so can't check, but have you looked into editing a style so that it doesn't invert the comping or arpeggios? Again, I know this is possible on the Korg, but can't remember about the Tyros.

Alan.
AlanDavisJr.com
Korg PA3x, Yamaha Tyros 4, Yamaha CP4 Stage Piano, Yamaha PSR3000, Roland F-100 Electric Piano, Roland PK-5 Bass Pedals, various harmonicas, penny whistle and a bass triangle (needs tuning)
 

pinetree

  • Guest
Re: Chord fingering mode: chord inversions and Voicing.
« Reply #8 on: June 15, 2014, 03:37:32 PM »
but have you looked into editing a style so that it doesn't invert the comping or arpeggios?
Alan.
I've done further tests:

On the "fingered" chord recognition mode, all chords (chomping or arpeggios) are played by the tyros in the root position.
There is absolutely no difference playing chords in the root position or inversions, the Tyros sounds identical, hence it totally ignores inversions.

On the "fingered on Bass" chord recognition mode, the bass part is changed, all bass notes parts are converted to the single bass note played. so if the base was playing C C G C, C C G C and I played the chord C (G C E) the base note will play G G ? G, G G ? G. (? = another note, did not check, but it sounds wrong).
this could work ideal for styles that play the single root note and do not have sophisticated parts to play with the bass.
chomping and arpeggios are played in the root position, chord inversion are played as root position chords.

Time to sleep for me, it's nearly 1am.
Pino
« Last Edit: June 15, 2014, 03:39:49 PM by pinetree »
 

Offline English

Re: Chord fingering mode: chord inversions and Voicing.
« Reply #9 on: June 15, 2014, 03:40:33 PM »
Yeah. We're talking about different things. The keyboard changes the inversion of the chords the individual parts play - as necessary to keep it from sounding muddy or tinny, but it doesn't take any notice of the inversion you play. That's by design, and I don't think there's too much can (or even should, in my opinion) be done about it. Sleep well.

Alan.
AlanDavisJr.com
Korg PA3x, Yamaha Tyros 4, Yamaha CP4 Stage Piano, Yamaha PSR3000, Roland F-100 Electric Piano, Roland PK-5 Bass Pedals, various harmonicas, penny whistle and a bass triangle (needs tuning)
 

pinetree

  • Guest
Re: Chord fingering mode: chord inversions and Voicing.
« Reply #10 on: June 15, 2014, 03:49:52 PM »
That's by design, and I don't think there's too much can (or even should, in my opinion) be done about it. Sleep well.

Alan.

Some songs sound wrong without chord voicing.
And without styles anyone would play a better chord inversion to improve the sound of the piece, why shouldn't this be possible with a style?

night
 

Offline Ed B

Re: Chord fingering mode: chord inversions and Voicing.
« Reply #11 on: June 16, 2014, 06:29:56 AM »
Hi Night
Welcome
An arranger keyboard playing with styles is a bit different from playing a piano. In using chord inversions root position is closed voicing first inversion is open voicing, second is closed in the middle)
First let me say that in harmonizing a melody in general you use inversions for the following purposes:
1) Make it easier to play so that there is a smooth movement for the performer and you spread this over both hands
2) To create a pedal point bass line. Pedal point along with extended chords can add tension to your music
3) To create a descending bass line (which can be chromatic) to create a melancholy mood in the music
4) To create an ascending bass line to give an uplifting emotion to the song
5) As well one of the jobs of the bass player is to help with rhythm and you can create a rhythmic pattern in the bass which can help the rhythm and really add to the piece.
When you see the use of slash chords in a piece of music the composer/arranger is probably dealing with the bass line that's why it is shown with the note that is required to be played.
Yes some pieces sound better if this bass line  is followed.
Yes you can do it using fingered on bass or AI fingered!The CASM in the style does a pretty good job of sorting out the other players so that you do not end up with anything but the best harmonization. However you need to make sure that you do not conflict with your right hand chord playing as well.

I use AI fingered and with this you can create all of the bass lines and also you have the ability to add a couple of neat little tricks where you can turn off on the fly all players but the drummer or the drummer and the bass player
Here is article which may be of help in furthering some of what I had to say Hope its a help.

Regards
Ed B

Note: you can also turn off the style in some sections and play two handed which allows you play whatever you want. You can use strings or whatever voice and this can be fitted into a total arrangement using registrations. Just an added thought. The arranger has an awful lot of capability.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2014, 06:49:15 AM by Ed B »
Keep on learning
 

pinetree

  • Guest
Re: Chord fingering mode: chord inversions and Voicing.
« Reply #12 on: June 16, 2014, 07:34:16 AM »
...

Thank you Ed B.

I'm sorry, "Night" was an abbreviation of "good night", my second name is Pino, but it's also a very common first name in Italy, so I use it as a first name.

I appreciate your lengthy analysis and the excellent pdf file you linked, I will take some time to read it as soon as possible.

I understand the importance of the bass note in songs like "Whiter shade of pale", the song just wouldn't be the same without the bass part.

Even though the Tyros converts all chords inversion into the root chord, I very often use inversion for the purpose you indicated as n. 1.
For instance in the song "I will survive", it would be quite difficult for me to jump around playing the root chords progression that goes on repeatedly without variations till the end, with so many 4 finger chords I just had to learn the inversions that suited me best.

I don't understand why you did not mention in your 5 point list the use of inversions for chord voicing.
Your n.1 point has also an advantage of avoiding sound jumps when playing without styles, I don't understand why Tyros does not give us the option for some songs to play chord voicing (hence keep the inversion sound without converting to root).

In some songs the overall sound quality would be better if I could play the chord as it would sound in it's inversion, without being converted to root. For what I understand this is not possible with the Tyros unless I switch off all parts that play chords, chomping or arpeggios, switch on LEFT hand part and play the rhythm myself, the only problem is that I'm not experienced enough to do this and I would loose the contribution of many "band" members example Rhythm1, Rhythm2, phrase 1, phrase 2 etc...

But maybe AI Fingered mode will resolve the issue, I will read you PDF for details.
Pino
« Last Edit: June 16, 2014, 07:40:20 AM by pinetree »
 

Offline English

Re: Chord fingering mode: chord inversions and Voicing.
« Reply #13 on: June 16, 2014, 08:07:53 AM »
Pino. I really don't understand what you mean when you keep saying that the Tyros converts all chords to the root inversion. To which part of the accompaniment are you referring?

Are you saying that if, say, you are playing the chord C Major in second inversion (G-C-E) with a style which contains a strumming guitar, and a string pad, that both the strings and the guitar always plays C-E-G? I would find this very surprising, and I certainly don't believe it does so.

Or are you referring to the bass note? I thought I understood what you were trying to achieve, but now I'm not so sure.

Alan.
AlanDavisJr.com
Korg PA3x, Yamaha Tyros 4, Yamaha CP4 Stage Piano, Yamaha PSR3000, Roland F-100 Electric Piano, Roland PK-5 Bass Pedals, various harmonicas, penny whistle and a bass triangle (needs tuning)
 

pinetree

  • Guest
Re: Chord fingering mode: chord inversions and Voicing.
« Reply #14 on: June 16, 2014, 08:21:08 AM »


You're absolutely correct, I'm sorry, I made a big mistake.

I've done a bit of checking with Tyros Score: the Tyros plays ONLY ONE chord inversion for each chord we play, and it's not always (as I thought) the root chord.
So I can play any inversion, the Tyros will play only one recorded inversion chord or root chord, example for C Major, the Tyros plays second inversion G C E even if I play C E G or E G C.
So this should be the best choice for most songs that gives the smallest sound jump and best sound.

So my issue was explained incorrectly due to my misunderstanding of how Tyros plays the chords.
The issue now would be, Why doesn't the Tyros allow me as an option to sound the Chord in the inversion I choose.

So from reading your posts again and from what Ed B has said, what I understand now is that the Tyros is choosing the best inversion for a smooth sound.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2014, 08:27:47 AM by pinetree »
 

Offline English

Re: Chord fingering mode: chord inversions and Voicing.
« Reply #15 on: June 17, 2014, 09:16:44 AM »
Herein lies the confusion, I think. It's not being pedantic to say that the term inversion can only apply to each individual part in the style - and each part can use different inversions, and alter them according to the chord being played.

If we're talking about which bass note is being played, then the term inversion doesn't apply.

Alan.
AlanDavisJr.com
Korg PA3x, Yamaha Tyros 4, Yamaha CP4 Stage Piano, Yamaha PSR3000, Roland F-100 Electric Piano, Roland PK-5 Bass Pedals, various harmonicas, penny whistle and a bass triangle (needs tuning)
 

pinetree

  • Guest
Re: Chord fingering mode: chord inversions and Voicing.
« Reply #16 on: June 17, 2014, 01:27:53 PM »

Hi

Like Alan said, the "on bass" fingering mode you indicated only places the bass note, the chord inversions chosen in the rhythm part remains the Tyros standard and it seems they do not change in any mode, no matter which inversion you effectively are playing on the keyboard.

Ie: it seems like in all modes, the tyros always plays F major as root ( F A C) even if I play 1st or 2nd inversion on the keyboard, and always plays C major in second inversion (G C E) no matter which inversion I play on the keyboard.

From a few dozen tests I've done on various styles, I don't believe the Tyros changes criteria of inversion selection dependent on some criteria (different style, fingering mode or whatever).
But even if the criteria of choosing the inversion is based on the style we are using, it's anyway predefined by Yamaha, and we have no way of changing it.
I will check further when I have time.

I don't believe the mode "Fingered on Bass" is designed to be used with all styles, it sounds OK were the rhythm is chomping or the chord held for the full bar, and/or the bass is a single note, but it sounds awful in many styles, especially where arpeggios are used or with a walking bass (as one would expect).

Pino
« Last Edit: June 17, 2014, 01:37:39 PM by pinetree »
 

LivingRoomMusician

  • Guest
Re: Chord fingering mode: chord inversions and Voicing.
« Reply #17 on: June 17, 2014, 06:52:33 PM »
Just spent an hour on my S910 noodling with fingering modes (again). Overall speaking, ‘on bass’ still sounds best to me. There may be a few problem bars here and there, but it should be possible to work around those few bars with different registrations. Fortunately, my philistine ears usually tolerate those few problem bars  ::)

Nonetheless, keep this very interesting discussion going!
 

Offline EileenL

Re: Chord fingering mode: chord inversions and Voicing.
« Reply #18 on: June 18, 2014, 03:45:21 AM »
I have both my Tyros 5 and S950 set to AI fingering all the time. It is a fantastic tool to use and is so easy to use for all those slash chords we often get in nice music.

pinetree

  • Guest
Re: Chord fingering mode: chord inversions and Voicing.
« Reply #19 on: June 18, 2014, 08:06:44 AM »
....
Overall speaking, ‘on bass’ still sounds best to me. ...


How about trying the "Fingered on Bass" with a style that contains arpeggios in the rhythm part or walking bass (or any bass that does not have a single note that constantly repeats.

I feel the style is completely destroyed and often awful to listen to.

Let me know what you think?

Pino
 

LivingRoomMusician

  • Guest
Re: Chord fingering mode: chord inversions and Voicing.
« Reply #20 on: June 18, 2014, 02:08:36 PM »
I tend to agree with you for complex arpeggios, as styles are essentially a careful assembly of several arpeggios themselves, too much is too much, as always. But I have little to no 'on bass' problems with simple arpeggios or walking bass lines. Perhaps you could post some sound examples so we know what you really mean.
 

Offline Ed B

Re: Chord fingering mode: chord inversions and Voicing.
« Reply #21 on: June 18, 2014, 02:53:39 PM »
Hi Pino

What style are you using that you are experiencing the problem with and what chords are you playing with what fingering? Perhaps we can replicate the issue.

I am wondering if your issue has to do with the type of style. There are basically two types of styles on Yamaha arrangers, Pro and Session. The characteristics of these styles vary. Pro style provides a very high quality sound. They provide very authentic rhythm, fill-in and harmony responding to over 20 chord types. They are great for the player who knows exactly what they want. Play G7/9 and you get a G7/9. Chord changes translate into great lifelike musical accompaniments. The second style is the Session style these go a step further providing much more colour and spice to the playing. These are designed to go further and actually will translate a simple C7 into a much more colourful chord such as C13 without additional fingering to achieve it. This extra colour can create a problem depending on the harmonic chord sequence and the rapidity of the chord changes. They work best with slower chord changing songs where there is less chance of interference and inappropriate accompaniment.  An example the Tyros2 style Swinging Boogie and Combo Boogie a Pro style. The Combo Boogie would be fine for songs like Bumble Boogie or possible flight of the Bumble B but the session style Swinging Boogie would not. It would only be appropriate for a song with no fast chord changes such as a simple 12 Bar Blues.
Session styles do have there place and are very useful.
There are many more professional styles than there are session styles. Just some additional information as I thought about your issue

Regards
Ed B
Keep on learning
 

Offline Joe H

Re: Chord fingering mode: chord inversions and Voicing.
« Reply #22 on: June 18, 2014, 05:08:29 PM »
Ed,

I have a question for you.  I am not musically qualified to participate in this discussion, but you mention style CASM and note there are two distinct types of styles... Session and Pro.  Have you ever looked at the CASM settings for individual Style Parts to see if they might determine why these two types of styles respond to chords differently?.

My point here is that if the key is in CASM settings, then maybe that is where the fix is.

Joe H
« Last Edit: June 18, 2014, 05:11:12 PM by Joe H »
Music is the Universal Language!

My Article: Using Multi Pads for EDM. Download Regs, Styles & MPs:  http://psrtutorial.com/music/articles/dancemusic.html
 

Offline Joe H

Re: Chord fingering mode: chord inversions and Voicing.
« Reply #23 on: June 18, 2014, 06:26:02 PM »
Ed,

I'm going to throw out another question to you. 

Is it possible that the Pro styles have chord and arpeggios notes programmed differently than Session styles?  Meaning are they programmed as inversions or possibly are there more notes used in the Chord, Pad, and Phrase Parts, that provide a different response to the keyboard players left-hand accompaniment chord fingering?

Joe H
« Last Edit: June 18, 2014, 06:27:03 PM by Joe H »
Music is the Universal Language!

My Article: Using Multi Pads for EDM. Download Regs, Styles & MPs:  http://psrtutorial.com/music/articles/dancemusic.html
 

pinetree

  • Guest
Re: Chord fingering mode: chord inversions and Voicing.
« Reply #24 on: June 19, 2014, 12:58:20 AM »
Hi Ed.

I will do some checks to understand the differences with the various style types and record them.
 

Offline Ed B

Re: Chord fingering mode: chord inversions and Voicing.
« Reply #25 on: June 19, 2014, 03:31:32 AM »
Hi Joe
Yes I did. I also downloaded the manuals on all the Yamaha arrangers to try to glean more, then I read Michael and Peter's document Styles1.01 on styles and Jorgen's course. I also got the manual for Styleworks.
Then decided I had no more time and could achieve more using style assembly using some of the programs available.
One thing I did conclude musically is that there is emphasis in the design of the CASM musically to focus on the authenticity of the sound of the instrument. For example in making a pad string section there would be open spacing used. So when you played a 3 note chord you find for that instrument a 4 note chord in an inversion.
So this is what I meant when I said this was not the same as a piano your dealing with individual instruments with ranges ect.
I went down many rat holes. This is the link to the paper i referred to for anyone interested.
http://www.wierzba.homepage.t-online.de/stylefiles.htm

Regards
Ed B
« Last Edit: June 19, 2014, 05:35:54 AM by Ed B »
Keep on learning
 

LivingRoomMusician

  • Guest
Re: Chord fingering mode: chord inversions and Voicing.
« Reply #26 on: June 19, 2014, 11:54:21 AM »
Quote
...focus on the authenticity of the sound of the instrument....

Authenticity is certainly one design goal, but there may be other design goals, IMHO. One of the other design goals might be ‘mix optimization’, i.e. make the ‘style plus RH voice’ mix sounds best.

An indicator for ‘mix optimization’ is the following: the mix of (full) style plus RH piano sounds very good. Reduce the style to drums and bass only, and lo and behold the RH piano sounds thin, an observation in recurring discussion threads on this forum (Tyros piano sounds bad, etc).

At least for piano, it appears to be impossible to design the sound for both 'authenticity' and 'mix optimization' at the same time, or Yamaha would have done it long time ago. Unfortunately for some of us, once you have heard the thin piano sound, you will always hear it, and even worse, you will also hear the thin piano sound in the mix :(

The 'mix optimization' issue may also apply to the Yamaha drum sounds that some people regularly complain about, although it does not bother me personally, perhaps because I am not a drummer  :)

Just my 2 cents  :)
 

Offline mikf

Re: Chord fingering mode: chord inversions and Voicing.
« Reply #27 on: June 19, 2014, 10:13:28 PM »
There is a lot of searching for technical reasons here but I see this mostly as just horses for courses. Some accompaniments lend themselves to certain songs, playing styles or chord changes than others. This is true of live musicians not just arrangers. Listen to the fabulous bass lines in a four seasons song, then imagine trying to use this kind of bass riff in a jazz arrangement with lots of extended chords, complex rhythms and multiple chord changes per bar - just can't work. Same is true of the arranger, you have match styles with arrangements, and an appropriate playing technique.
When experienced players use chord inversions it is normally to create a particular sound in their arrangement. The more advanced advanced fingering settings are to allow this to happen - you get what you play, or at least something close. While the arranger is definitely not perfect in this regard, and not as flexible as good, live musicians, it works quite well if you use it properly. If you are a less experienced player and you are using inversions to simplify playing eg less finger movement between chords, you probably don't want these settings.
Mike
 

pinetree

  • Guest
Re: Chord fingering mode: chord inversions and Voicing.
« Reply #28 on: June 19, 2014, 11:44:46 PM »
....
If you are a less experienced player and you are using inversions to simplify playing eg less finger movement between chords, you probably don't want these settings.
Mike

Hi

My request would be: allow us to choose, adding a new fingering mode "Fingered with inversions" which would allow me to play the full style using the inversion I choose for specific songs, where I feel the Tyros choice is not ideal: and in all other cases I will carry on to use the Tyros "fingered" mode, because the Tyros choice of predefined inversion would be perfect for me.

Pino
 

Offline English

Re: Chord fingering mode: chord inversions and Voicing.
« Reply #29 on: June 20, 2014, 12:07:39 AM »
Mike, could you explain to me your take on what the issue is? I must admit to still not understanding the problem - and I've sure tried! I don't seem to be able to get it from Pino's explanation.

Alan.
AlanDavisJr.com
Korg PA3x, Yamaha Tyros 4, Yamaha CP4 Stage Piano, Yamaha PSR3000, Roland F-100 Electric Piano, Roland PK-5 Bass Pedals, various harmonicas, penny whistle and a bass triangle (needs tuning)
 

pinetree

  • Guest
Re: Chord fingering mode: chord inversions and Voicing.
« Reply #30 on: June 20, 2014, 12:09:41 AM »
I tend to agree with you for complex arpeggios, as styles are essentially a careful assembly of several arpeggios themselves, too much is too much, as always. But I have little to no 'on bass' problems with simple arpeggios or walking bass lines. Perhaps you could post some sound examples so we know what you really mean.

I would expect the Tyros to play at least the arpeggio in the inverted form rather that break the arpeggio.
I don't understand how it's possible to not have bass problems with walking bass lines?
All the styles I've tried, the bass line is completely interrupted and a single note is played, if they really wanted to keep the lowest note and keep the bass rhythm, they would have to invert the bass part. can you give me a name of a style with walking bass and one with arpeggios where you have no problem playing with "Fingered on Bass"?
As soon as I have some time I will experiment a bit to have a clearer picture of what the Tyros effectively does.

I'm not an expert. what I understand is that slashed chords normally denote also the inversion of a chord, but it's not always true:
Tyros instead does not apply an inversion, so you will not get an inverted arpeggio or a shifted bass sequence starting from the bass note.

Wikipedia explains the confusion with slashed chords:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slash_chord

The final verdict is whatever we prefer:
On few songs where the bass note is important, I would prefer a specific chord inversion or sometimes bass line inversion rather than a single note for bass.
This would be possible only if Tyros creates an extra selection modes.
"fingered with chord/bass line inversion".

 

pinetree

  • Guest
Re: Chord fingering mode: chord inversions and Voicing.
« Reply #31 on: June 20, 2014, 12:11:21 AM »
Mike, could you explain to me your take on what the issue is? I must admit to still not understanding the problem - and I've sure tried! I don't seem to be able to get it from Pino's explanation.

Alan.
:D

I will send some samples as soon as possible, I need to go to work now.

Pino.
 

LivingRoomMusician

  • Guest
Re: Chord fingering mode: chord inversions and Voicing.
« Reply #32 on: June 20, 2014, 02:42:42 AM »
Well, it was me who first suggested to post sound samples, so we may actually hear the issue.
It is hard to hear a non-issue  :)
 

Offline mikf

Re: Chord fingering mode: chord inversions and Voicing.
« Reply #33 on: June 20, 2014, 03:00:03 AM »
English
My understanding is that if Pino plays an inversion he wants everything in the accompaniment to 'invert' - Pino can confirm if I have that right. But that is not necessarily how a real band actually behaves. It is true that a guitar player for example might deliberately change inversions for a certain sound, but that might be completely independent of what the bass player does. And it would be almost logistically impossible on an arranger to re create all the different combinations that are possible by real players.
On a walking bass I believe on the Yamaha the line does change in at least some styles if I change the bass note. Can't test it right now because I am at my other house and no arranger here. On complicated rock and pop bass lines the line itself has constantly changing bass notes so changing the 'root' of this may not sound right.
But overall I think Pino may be a bit confused about inversions.  Inversions are quite a simplistic view of what is possible because it's just the same note sequence raised to different bass. Lead sheets don't show inversions just the bass note, leaving the player to decide how to complete the chord. And you can scatter the notes of a chord over more than one octave in almost any sequence, or leave some out altogether depending on the sound/feel  you want to create. Experienced players when playing piano will create a lot of the harmony in the right hand which combines with LH to change the sound/feel of a chord. So C6/E I might play with an doubled up E an octave apart in my LH and a G, A , C in a high register with the RH  depending on the melody line. Pedaling also lets you hold the sound of a note yet playing other notes. Guitar players might play 3 inversions of the same chord in the same bar by sliding up the fretboard for effect. You just could never program a machine to do all this.
But of course as a very good player you already know all this!
Mike
 

Offline Joe H

Re: Chord fingering mode: chord inversions and Voicing.
« Reply #34 on: June 20, 2014, 07:59:55 AM »
With all due respect to Pino, I think he wants his Tyros to behave like a human and read his mind, and know his intentions.  The arranger is not a real band... it is a band in a box.  Looking at the CASM settings, I think there may be a possibility to reprogram a style to play differently.  It appears there are several ways to accomplish this...  using Alternate Channels, chord assignments. high Note Limit (which causes an octave shift of the Root), etc.  I think Yamaha programs the style files for the best possible performance for both the average amateur and professional musician.

I think the engineers design the keyboard and style format, then let highly skilled musicians who really know music orchestration and composition to program the style as we hear them. But it appears to me that they could be programmed to play differently. Peter and Michael just updated their technical document on style structure, and state they do not cover the musicality of using or playing styles.  I think that is what we are talking about here.  To my knowledge, there is NO documentation what so ever on the topic.

Pino makes a legitimate point and I'm willing to bet that someone at Yamaha has the answer.  It requires knowledge and a skill set that most of us will never have.

Our arrangers are quite capable of performing more functionality.  Look at the Super Articulation 2 Voices.. realtime slice and splice of heads, bodies and tails of PCM samples.  I play VL (Virtual Acoustic) saxes and flutes and a few "synth" Voices.  The technology is impressive.  VL Voices are created from Oscillators that are manipulated and modified by FM, Envelopes, and Filters generated by computer modeling.  The result is a virtual MIDI saxophone that is the closest thing to the real instrument  that I have ever heard.  You actually have to learn how to play it, but in a different way than the real horn. None the less it requires practice.

My point is that I agree with Pino in theory... it's all in the programming of the style file.  But the programming would have to be both style and player specific.   So Pino... you have your work cut out for you.

IMHO...    ;D

Joe H
« Last Edit: June 20, 2014, 11:04:50 AM by Joe H »
Music is the Universal Language!

My Article: Using Multi Pads for EDM. Download Regs, Styles & MPs:  http://psrtutorial.com/music/articles/dancemusic.html
 

Offline English

Re: Chord fingering mode: chord inversions and Voicing.
« Reply #35 on: June 20, 2014, 08:41:07 AM »
My understanding is that if Pino plays an inversion he wants everything in the accompaniment to invert...
Thanks Mike, That's what I thought.
As before, then, I say that that is neither practical nor desirable in anything but the very most basic style. A style with just one part and a bass

Pino, you have to think about how the various instruments instruments in a band play. What would likely be the most common instruments in an accompaniment? Guitar, piano and strings? Let's take those three:
A guitar has six strings (tuned E A D G B E). Guitar players, when playing accompaniment or rhythm, mostly don't think in terms of the individual notes, They play chord shapes that create the notes in the chord. They are paying no attention to the inversion of the chord - as well they shouldn't. In my opinion, they only real need to think about chord inversions is when keeping the notes in the optimum range for clarity and pleasing sound. Even then, it's not really inversions we're worried about, because the chords aren't often basic triads.

Piano: As explained by Mike and I earlier, a pianist rarely plays a basic triad. They play voicings, which are a collection of notes - often spread out between two hands and across multiple octaves. In the jazz and other "jazzy" genres, when accompanying, the chord voicing is usually in a smaller area of an octave to an octave and a half, but there is a very limited range that you can play the voicing before a need arises to play a different voicing to avoid notes getting muddy or tinny.
Even more so than with guitar, these voicings are so far from a basic triad as to be unrecognisable to many people who don't do it. As explained in an earlier post, these voicings are very "fourthy"; built on intervals of a fourth. Not a basic triad in sight.

Strings: very often single lines, octaves or pad chords. Out of all of these, strings are the likeliest to play a basic arpeggio/triad, but not very often, and has to be done carefully to avoid getting mundane.

Now, out of those three most common accompaniment instruments, how often will they be found playing basic triads? Rarely. Furthermore, even if they did, what would be the point in them all playing the same arpeggio in the same inversion? It would be quite mundane.

So, do I care about inversions the individual parts are playing? Not in the slightest, as long as they are picking voicings that sound musical and pleasing, and that they re-voice to keep the authentic and pleasing sound. Today's arrangers - and Yamahas in particular - do an admiral job of that.
Would I want the parts to be playing the same inversion? Heck, no! That would sound awful.
Is the note being played by the bass at all relevant in discussing inversions? Nope.

Alan.
AlanDavisJr.com
Korg PA3x, Yamaha Tyros 4, Yamaha CP4 Stage Piano, Yamaha PSR3000, Roland F-100 Electric Piano, Roland PK-5 Bass Pedals, various harmonicas, penny whistle and a bass triangle (needs tuning)
 

pinetree

  • Guest
Re: Chord fingering mode: chord inversions and Voicing.
« Reply #36 on: June 20, 2014, 01:28:34 PM »
Hi,
Quote
Mikf said:
My understanding is that if Pino plays an inversion he wants everything in the accompaniment to 'invert'

No, everything must follow the styles criteria, instead with "fingered on bass" the style criteria is completely destroyed, obviously because this fingering mode is not designed for all styles, that is why I don't understand how LivingRoomMusician does not have bass problems with walking bass lines.
Only the arpeggio parts must play the inverted arpeggio instead of the predefined inversion from Tyros.

Quote
LivingRoomMusician said:
Well, it was me who first suggested to post sound samples, so we may actually hear the issue.
I’m still not in the mood to play keyboard, it’s two days now that I’m not feeling to well due to food gone bad, I’m sure. so my samples will need to wait.

Quote
Joe said:
"With all due respect to Pino, I think he wants his Tyros to behave like a human and read his mind, and know his intentions. "

No, on certain occasions, when I decide to select the specific fingering mode, Tyros simply needs to read my fingers and base the style on the effective inversion played and avoid using the default predefined inversion.


I will make some examples to give an idea, without any specific style in mind:
Example one:
Selected fingering mode: “fingered”
I’m playing the F major chord in first inversion A C F
Bass is playing quarter F note in the beginning of every bar.
Rhythm1 is playing an arpeggio in F major in root A C F C,  A C F C
Rhythm2 is chomping something, maybe chords with eighth notes at a lower volume.
Phrase1 is doing some sporadic riff
Phrase2 plays the a top C every two bars when the arpeggio is in the fourth quarter
Etc.

Now if I had the possibility of using a fingering mode called “Fingered with inversions”
This is what I would expect:
I’m playing the F major chord in 1st inversion A C F
Bass is playing quarter A note in the beginning of every bar.
Rhythm1 is playing an arpeggio in F major 1st inversion C F A F,  C F A F
Rhythm2 is chomping something, maybe chords with eighth notes at a lower volume
Phrase1 is doing some sporadic riff (go ahead, ad lib)
Phrase2 plays the a top F every two bars when the arpeggio is in the fourth quarter
Etc.

Example two:
Selected fingering mode: “fingered”
I’m playing the F major chord in first inversion A C F
Bass is playing an arpeggio F A C A, F A C A, F A C A,
Rhythm1 is sustaining a continues chord F A C
Rhythm2 is chomping something, maybe chords with eighth notes at a lower volume.
Phrase1 is doing some sporadic riff
Phrase2 plays the a top C in the last quarter of each bar.

Now if I had the possibility of using a fingering mode called “Fingered with inversions”
I’m playing the F major chord in first inversion A C F
Bass is playing an arpeggio A C F C, A C F C, A C F C,
Rhythm1 is sustaining a continues chord A C F (F major 1st inversion)
Rhythm2 is chomping something, maybe chords with eighth notes at a lower volume.
Phrase1 is doing some sporadic riff
Phrase2 plays a top F in the last quarter of each bar.

Inverted arpeggios and chords are quite common in music, and I don’t see any difficulty or mind reading required by Tyros to be able to understand what we want, simply allow me to decide when the Tyros needs to follow my inversion or when I prefer Tyros choses its own library of predefined inversion.
It’s up to the Tyros engineers to design each style to allow for certain variations.
 

Offline EileenL

Re: Chord fingering mode: chord inversions and Voicing.
« Reply #37 on: June 20, 2014, 01:51:23 PM »
In AI fingering just Playing the  A Note and the F above it will give you what you want. You should try it out. I think you will like what it dose. Most Yamaha demonstrators use this method and would not use anything else.

Offline tyrosaurus

Re: Chord fingering mode: chord inversions and Voicing.
« Reply #38 on: June 20, 2014, 01:57:01 PM »
Hi Pino,

It sounds as if the T5 is not able to do what you want.    :(

However I notice that over the years you have had every Tyros model from the very first, and presumably they did exactly the same when playing chords!   ???

So why has it suddenly become a big problem for you?


Does anyone know if the Korg, Roland or Audya boards can manage this?

Regards

Ian
 

pinetree

  • Guest
Re: Chord fingering mode: chord inversions and Voicing.
« Reply #39 on: June 20, 2014, 03:24:09 PM »
----
However I notice that over the years you have had every Tyros model from the very first, and presumably they did exactly the same when playing chords!   ???
I've had all from Tyros 2, they are all identical in regard to this issue.
Quote

So why has it suddenly become a big problem for you?
-----

 ;D
Well, I will survive :D , it's only a small amount of songs I play that I would prefer the chord inversion played as I wish.
For the rest I'm perfectly happy with the fingering mode "Fingered".

Pino
 

Offline English

Re: Chord fingering mode: chord inversions and Voicing.
« Reply #40 on: June 20, 2014, 04:57:35 PM »

Does anyone know if the Korg, Roland or Audya boards can manage this?

I think you could probably do it on the PA3x. I still maintain, though, that it would be a pretty boring and unmusical sound if it could.

Alan.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2014, 06:01:57 PM by English »
AlanDavisJr.com
Korg PA3x, Yamaha Tyros 4, Yamaha CP4 Stage Piano, Yamaha PSR3000, Roland F-100 Electric Piano, Roland PK-5 Bass Pedals, various harmonicas, penny whistle and a bass triangle (needs tuning)
 

pinetree

  • Guest
Re: Chord fingering mode: chord inversions and Voicing.
« Reply #41 on: June 20, 2014, 05:27:05 PM »


What fingering mode did you use on the Tyros?
 

Offline English

Re: Chord fingering mode: chord inversions and Voicing.
« Reply #42 on: June 20, 2014, 06:07:07 PM »
I sold my Tyros, but I use regular fingered mode, and fingered on bass when required. My Korg has an easily accessible button to turn fingered on bass on and off, so I'll just hit that for the chords that I need need it,

Alan,
AlanDavisJr.com
Korg PA3x, Yamaha Tyros 4, Yamaha CP4 Stage Piano, Yamaha PSR3000, Roland F-100 Electric Piano, Roland PK-5 Bass Pedals, various harmonicas, penny whistle and a bass triangle (needs tuning)